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Yiuwin Tsang
Thomas, let's talk a little bit about the work that GottaBe! does what is it that you guys do? How and how is it you go about doing it.
Tomasz Dyl
So we are a multicultural marketing agency, otherwise known as ethnic marketing, international marketing, there's various terminology. But ultimately what we're doing is building a bridge between a the 14 point 6 million ethnic minorities that are living in the UK, and the brands that exist and looking to discover new audiences. How do we do is we do is through different means and different channels. So we work with over 250 different ethnic radio stations, TV, newspapers, influencers, who are helping us to reach the 14 point 6 million ethnic minority that living and work in the UK, we know that there is a huge need to change the representations and we are starting to see a shift from brands towards it. But there's still a lot more work to do. And we are on the journey to make that change.
Yiuwin Tsang
Sounds fabulous. So how many partners? Did you say that was 250?
Tomasz Dyl
So there's over 250, different ethnic portals, newspapers, magazines, for different media outlets? Phenomenal?
Yiuwin Tsang
And how do you go about kind of building the relationships with these because each of those, each of those channels, each of those outlets will be representative of a part of society of a particular culture. And those cultures will have their own, they have their own traditions, don't they, they have their own kind of like, I'm, I spent a lot of time in Bristol, I was, you know, and met my wife there have my kids there. So you know, person's got a big, big, big pot my life. And I remember doing a project with NHS. Way back when and part of it was engaging with the Somalian community out there. And it was very, I found it really fascinating, you know, in terms of from a communications perspective, who you reach out to the message in the unity like little things could kind of culturally whether you agree with them or not, for example, you know, a lot of the lot of the women and certainly the girls didn't have phones, for example, you know, so you had to kind of tailor your message in such a way if you're going to reach all sorts of groups. I mean, that's really, that's really significant to have 250, those outlets, as I say, and I assume that's multiple kind of cultures and ethnic groups are out there as well. How do you how do you go about building these types of relationships with those outlets?
Tomasz Dyl
Yeah, just like you've mentioned, each one of those communities would have a different nuances, different traditions, different religions, but celebration that they would be taking part and we want to be equally, you know, be part of their life. How do we go back building those relationships, you know, it spans over 15 years of running the business. So each day, we are in touch with different ethnic groups, and we learning all about them. And, you know, media consumptions what they do. And based on that we then look for those media, we reach out to them, see how we can work with them, what opportunities there are in terms of advertising, but equally, how can we sort of be part of the community, because we don't just want to place an advert. And that's it, and think, like, we've done a tic toc exercise, we want to be part of their life, we want to make that change. So if it requires going out and speaking at a place of worship, we will do that, if it means we need to go down and stand in front of an ethnic store for four days, 10 hours a day, we will do that. If it means that we need to go out and be part of an event and you know, throw a big party at it, we will do that, too. So it's ultimately looking out for the opportunities there are within the communities, but equally to get to know what is the challenge that barrier that they're facing and how our clients product or a service can make a difference. And it's all about building those connections, building those bridges. So that's why, you know, we spend a lot of time with the community in the community. And we believe that because of that, and the strong connection we have with the community is allows us to get to them and deliver the message as authentically as in the language that they would understand.
Yiuwin Tsang
And fabulous and it's and it's so important because as you say the lazy way of doing it would be let's identify the channels. Let's put the ads out there but the real engagement will be that it sounds like the process you go through is like a real immersion within those cultures within those parts of society. So you understand those pressure points, you understand the nuances, you understand the positioning that you have to do and in order to engage with them in a meaningful way on behalf of your clients, but also just so that you can then I imagine that feeding back that insight to your clients is one of the key values that you offer to them as well.
Tomasz Dyl
Absolutely. They're the things we pick up by speaking to people and the things and insights we are able to share. Our clients go and say, Can you actually do this in other markets? Can you do this in other communities? Can you do this for our, you know, generic consumers. And you don't always get the same level, because the moment you go down to having these conversations, people very often open up to you, because you've showed interest in the community, and they will sort of reward you by giving you what, in a way you need in order to make that difference. So that's why for us, you know, as much as different media is great and fantastic, and gives us an opportunity of, you know, reaching a wider audience, actually going down to the grassroot the sort of traditional ways of marketing is super important. And somebody said to us the other day, oh, you're one of those agency, they're still stuck in the day. That's where extra we're not stuck in the day. We are, you know, still doing what works, and we're very proud of it. But equally we do digital marketing, we do influences etc. It's a combination of both. That gets us the results that we need, but
Yiuwin Tsang
it's underpinned it's underpinned by the understanding, isn't it as underpinned by that insight by that engagement. Because it doesn't inventors, it doesn't matter what channel you use, if your messaging doesn't connect, and if you as I say, you know, the, so that project I worked on with the NHS Thomas was was was to do with was to do with sanitary products for young women. And, you know, you try and go to the Somalian community with the typical western communication of sanitary products. And if you go absolutely nowhere, you know, wouldn't it wouldn't go past first time. So you've got to have that level of understanding, you've got to have that level of engagement really to make the media work, irrespective what the media is.
Tomasz Dyl
Absolutely. And this is why over the last 15 years, we've built a network of four and a half 1000 brand ambassadors across the country. So these are our ears and eyes on the ground, listening out to what's happening, the community feeding back to us, we then also have another level on top of it, which is keep it movin influencer, these are your key people within the community that people come to with problems and troubles. But ultimately, when you are running a campaign, and you have a important message, they are happy to deliver it, and they're happy to put the name alongside of it. And then it's the media outlets, it's the, you know, ethnic channels that we work with. So like you said, there is different complexity that you need to get into, and there's different levels of it. And we do work a lot with the NHS, we work very closely with also other providers of government services and products, as well as utility providers who have got different challenges in different postcode areas. And we need to kind of drill down on those specific issues. A lot of the work we do so like you've mentioned, you know, Western communications, or the generic message doesn't necessarily resist, there are various blockages and areas that you know, you have to come across. And it's different community nuances, but also showing understanding of the different religions. And people's backgrounds is super important in getting that communication. Right. Yeah,
Yiuwin Tsang
yeah. Couldn't couldn't, couldn't agree with you couldn't agree with you more. And just to zoom out slightly in just a ticket ticket up a level. Thomas, why do you think there's been I mean, why do you think there has been this shift in regards to multicultural marketing or ethnic, ethnic marketing? What What, what, from your perspective or the dynamics that are causing this change?
Tomasz Dyl
There's various say the first is there is a lot more research being done in terms of under representations and people believes, is that today's so when we do studies on the ethnic minorities, they constantly tell us that today's marketing, today's media doesn't represent them. We're still stuck in this sort of ideal family size of two plus two. It's a same kind of family, no matter where in the car. entry that is and that there's, you know, that's everybody's the same. But when we actually look at the product and the consumptions, we then get a lot more informations. And I will use an example of a hair product, for instance, you know, we have different types of hairs, whether it's an afro hair, whatever else I Chinese hair, or whatever, that's a, you know, Western hair, there are different types. And they will require different treatments, different shampoos and different conditioners. So having the same messaging to say, here's a shampoo that will do you know, soap with everybody, it's not the same thing. So when we are sort of speaking to brands, we then think about actually, have you, you know, changed the communications? Or have you looked into it? What type of head is, you know, would work in the ethnic market? And the answer very often is, now, I just thought, you know, having a standard rice product would work for everybody. But actually, it's not that case. Like I've mentioned earlier, the Black Lives movement is also very important. So having these sort of movements that we highlight those is super important. And I think the COVID, and the impact of COVID, on the ethnic minorities, and the different, you know, changing society that we live in, has also shown that we need to be thinking more deeply and actually zooming in a lot more into who we're servicing and targeting, and ultimately, who we might be ignoring. Because a lot of the time, it's the ignorance aspect that we need to be also open to, and actually think about it. So that's what for us is the different changing. And what we're seeing is more and more companies want to ensure that they are 100%, transparent and 100% treating everybody equally. And if it means that they need to do 10 different campaigns for the same shampoo, they will go out that extreme. And they will do that they will do the work that is required to ensure that each community, each pot of people, gets them the right messaging in the right format. But most importantly, that is targeted and aimed at them and is reflective of who they are.
Yiuwin Tsang
And surely that that would yield better results from a from an ROI perspective. I mean, you know, I'm not hopefully I'm not being too kind of naive here. But it seems to be sensible, not only from a, from a progressive stance of better diversity and inclusion in in our general discourse in society, but also, just from a marketing dollar return perspective, surely they get a stronger chunk stronger response?
Tomasz Dyl
Absolutely, you've nailed it, I mean, the moment you have got more specific communications, more narrow down communications, we see that clients get a better return on investments, because people can reflect on it, they can see themselves being showcased. And they can see that this brand has gone into the efforts of getting it to the right consumer and everything else. And as a result of it, they're also more loyal. So what we see with ethnic minorities is that once you get them as a customer, they are a lot more loyal than your typical other customer. Because they reward you for trying and doing your hard work in getting them in first place. And therefore they will repay their back over a period of time by showcasing your loyalty populace.
Yiuwin Tsang
And these I mean, all these things, these words, loyalty, you know, these advocates, customer advocates, and I mean, that's like, like, the dreams of agency owners and brand managers out there. So it seems like it's a really positive step. And it seems like a really progressive step. And perhaps, you know, dare I say more, more people should be doing it. And so with this in mind, how can other agencies that are out there, how can leaders of these agencies educate both themselves and also their teams to avoid biases, I guess, is the best way of doing it and to for them to become truly multicultural in terms of their approach in terms of their activity? What what what, what kind of advice would you give, would you get there?
Tomasz Dyl
First of all, if you're not able to service your client to 100% look for a partner that's able to do we work with a number of agencies already big names, who come to us because we have a specialism. So sometimes it's very straightforward conversation with a client to say, look, we can't deliver this piece of work or we believe this product would be suited to this consumer but we can deliver it but we do have a partner that we work with. And that's where somebody like us or one of our competitors will come in and I happily work with alongside of you. Secondly, is to educate the customers because we need to challenge our customers just as much as they challenge us by giving us If we need to go back to them and saying, What are we doing, about ensuring that we are reaching 100% of the audiences? What changes do we need to do to the communications? And you know, what are we doing to ensure that this message is being seen by everybody in the community and not just put selected audiences. So challenge the brief by finding out the right mix and look out for those. Firstly, start building relationships with key people in your community. Ask your colleagues, I'm sure you have a diverse team around you, people will have connections, see how they can get you in front of key decision makers, key people of influence within those communities, and listen out to their problems, and then sort of pay back by, you know, putting a campaign that was going to solve the problems. Some of the best things we've seen, and some of the best campaigns we've delivered is by actually going out to the community saying we have got this particular client that we are going to work with, you know, what are some of the things that we would need to do, we would need to say in order for you to even consider it, and they will give you a endless list of things that they're looking for. And you can then match against your brief and say, Actually, this works very well. And I think, also have a look at some of the key campaigns that have been run towards the ethnic minorities and the results, they love it. So if your client is results focused, you might want to think about actually do you know what we might need to start doing a specific campaigns for specific groups, and then almost within one campaign, you end up doing six different campaigns, there are elements that you can reuse, but by going more narrow, you're able to deliver a better ROI.
Yiuwin Tsang
Okay, that's it. And flipping that question over Thomas, what are the big no no's that agencies must avoid? Because it could be a bit of a minefield in terms of, you know, some of the some of the activities or what what what, what's your what's your advice, when it comes to things to avoid, when it comes to running and multicultural campaigns
Tomasz Dyl
they need stereotypical and do your research, avoid tokenism avoid tick box exercise. And I suppose, remain being authentic. So that's the big ones that whatever the communication is that need to be authentic, don't just try to fake it. Because it's not going to work people will see it through. So yeah, definitely do your research. Avoid tokenism, avoid tick boxes. And if you're not the right person, being able to put your hand up and say, This is beyond me, I need a specialist. This is why you know, the landscape of agencies is out there, we all specialise in different areas. If it's not your core product, and you feel you're gonna let yourself down, go and speak to somebody else. It doesn't necessarily mean you have to hand over their client to us or the brief, we can work with you. So just be open both with your client and yourself to say, Can I actually deliver this? Or am I just gonna try and make it and we have done campaigns that didn't necessarily, you know, hit all the 100% boxes. But we've been able to put our hand up and say, you know, we've learned from it, this is what we need to improve for the next time. And we've done it, and it worked extremely well, the next time around, we've got it.
Yiuwin Tsang
Yeah, so I'd like to two points there that, you know, absolutely critical that the the campaign for the client and from from the agent perspective, retains authenticity, you can't go can't go in there. Research, no tokenism which is, which again, to do that, to make sure that you don't do that. But I guess the big thing for agencies looking to collaborate and again, with, you know, some of the communities that we've been involved with, for example, agency collective, there's been some instances of some, some beautiful collaborations and agencies kind of working together in that sort of way. And perhaps you could, you could go into a little bit and Thomas, how you and the team are going to be work with with other agencies, because there will always be I imagine there will always be a sense of risk for other agency or the natural thing to do, especially when things are a bit tough and tired. They're in different markets, you know, they get a brief, there's a there's a budget attached to it, they need to try and keep as much of that budget as possible. But as you say, it's making that decision in your mind that you know, we can't deliver or we're not in a position of strength to deliver on this. We need to bring some help in. So there's always been that hesitation, I suppose. With some agency on to collaborate, what do you do, how do you help agency owners to kind of you know, get get other agencies even in terms Is the work that you do to try and, you know, overcome that and deliver value for the client overall.
Tomasz Dyl
Yeah, so I suppose there's, there's a few ways we can do it. So we work with a leading PR agency on a financial product service. And they were very transparent and honest with the client and say, Look, we can deliver the mainstream media, no issues, or when it comes to the specialism, we don't have that in house, we will need to work with a partner. And they actually worked, both the clients and the agency interviewed us pick the right partner, and then we worked side by side. With it, we had to share a budget. But again, working with the ethnic media, they're a lot cheaper and a lot more affordable than some of your mainstream media. So your budget does get a lot further in the sort of ethnic space. Second example is we've worked with an agencies where they white labelled our services. And again, they sort of given us a small chunk, just to prove it to the client, give them a sort of almost, you know, a proof in the pudding. Because it worked very well, they came back and said, actually, you know what, we're now going to do a bit of a change, and we're gonna spend this budget 5050. So we will do 50 ourselves, and we want you to work alongside. Third one. And this is where I would always encourage and it doesn't cost anything is to actually pick up a phone and speak to somebody like us and say, Look, guys, we're working on this challenge, we're not sure if it's going to be right. Denise borrows a half an hour, an hour of your time, just to walk through this brief, and see what you think of it. And then we can go back to the client and you know, think about whether we need to get somebody involved, or we can probably give you within that hour, a few indications of what you can do, it's within your space, but you don't have to share their budget with us or you didn't even have to engage with us. But you were able to do some of the ethnic outreach, and work with Santos publications and media, as well as communities, yourself. And that might be a good starting point for you to start thinking about how you're going to deliver that moving forward with your clients, and your the briefs that are going to get and sort of think about ensuring that your campaigns are hitting all the communities and not just one or a couple. Yeah,
Yiuwin Tsang
it goes back to what we spoke about before, you know, in terms of delivering ROI for your clients and and generating that, you know, that that kind of impact not only from a, you know, pound shilling pence, you know, financial kind of perspective, but also the impact from, you know, the diversity, equity inclusion perspective. Well, for the clients, it's all driving more value for the kinds of the bottom line. And last question for me on this section Thomas is what what are your hopes for the future when it comes to multicultural ethnic marketing? What would you like to see in the next three, five years.
Tomasz Dyl
So at the beginning of mentioned that only one in five brands currently reached out or less active in the ethnic space, I would like to see that changing and not just becoming two in five is becoming more like a five out of five. So ensuring that we are all working towards ensuring that the marketing is inclusive. And it's not just by the ethnic minorities, there is a various other subgroups, we need to be mindful of people with disabilities, different sects, and religions, etc, etc. So there's so much more subsections that we need to be mindful, it's not just about the ethnic ones. So for me, I would love to see that in the five years time that we can actually sit down and have this conversation where it's actually five and five. We started at, as I said, one in five, and we're seeing about 1.2 at the moment. It's moving slowly, but we need that to really accelerate and we haven't got long to do that. Because the movement is getting bigger and and there is more and more tractions and we're seeing more and more pressure at all company levels that they need to do something more about it. So let's all work together. And let's make that marketing more inclusive for everybody. Not just with everything when you're at ease.